tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post245074141380743008..comments2024-03-07T00:43:49.073-08:00Comments on a..sinner: Books I've Read(or am reading)- Twenty-One: "Steps of Transformation" by Father Meletios WebberSophocleshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-11385325301642958682011-09-15T20:57:25.116-07:002011-09-15T20:57:25.116-07:00Anonymous,
Thank you for your thoughtful comment....Anonymous,<br /><br />Thank you for your thoughtful comment. As well, my apologies for taking so long to respond.<br /><br />I really can find nothing to disagree with what you wrote. My intention for the post addressed other issues yet your thoughts definitely bare thoughtful consideration. <br /><br />My thinking on this matter continues to "settle". God and His Mother be with you my friend.Sophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-27606480138971478082011-08-28T09:35:14.989-07:002011-08-28T09:35:14.989-07:00Hi I was in AA before I became Orthodox, in fact I...Hi I was in AA before I became Orthodox, in fact I would say that it was AA and recovery and a spiritual awakening that allowed me to become open to returning to Christianity having lost all faith in the years of drinking.<br />For me it was made clear to me that as recovery progressed it would be good to find further depth of spiritual engagement through an organised religious activity. I tried to reconcile with my cradle faith of Roman Catholicism and that led to further questioning, as opposed to outright rebellion which characterised my earlier rejection of the RC faith. I did not find the answers to my ( by now) sober questions and problems with Roman Catholicism...I did find the answers in Orthodoxy, a process which was quietly happening to me a long time before I got sober, but I was unaware of it...( for example when in my atheistic drinking wasteland I nevertheless found myself being drawn to Icons as an 'art form' etc ). I would like to believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding me, and I believe that the Holy Spirit guided me to AA because all I ever did in my despair was to call out to 'God' to relieve me of my alcoholism...I believe that AA is an instruments of Gods Mercy and in no way contradicts Orthodox Christianity...in fact I would say that had I NOT encountered AA I think it would have been most unlikely that I would have encountered Orthodox Christianity, since I would either be dead, my soul lost, or still wandering around in the darkness and despair of active alcoholism, which in my case would not have been a likely starting point for a journey to Orthodoxy...I am enormously grateful to AA since it opened my mind to the need for a spiritual growth and rebirth. I remember being 3 weeks sober and talking with a guy who was 25 years sober, I said ' can you tell me about the AA program without all the God stuff' he said 'yes I can but that will take me about 15 seconds...if however I keep in 'the God stuff' we can have a conversation which will never end'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-39106003053449173292010-03-23T23:55:27.830-07:002010-03-23T23:55:27.830-07:00Cyril,
Thank you so much for you comment.
I wa...Cyril,<br /><br />Thank you so much for you comment. <br /><br />I was also told who you were and the work you are doing in Romania. I have read many OCMC issues and recognized you from there.<br /><br />Before answering your questions and speaking more directly to your thoughts concerning my post, I would like to know if you also read the previous comments on here between myself and James the Thickheaded? I think if you have not, <i>some</i> of what you are addressing is answered there.<br /><br />With that said, my aims with this post are perhaps a little difficult to explain. To fully to do justice with what I intended with this writing, I need to set down a lot more material that at I cannot at present. However, I think we could have a good conversation but I would like to know what your own understanding of syncretism and gnosticism is at present to better engage the issues you raise.<br /><br />I look forward to your response, Cyril. <br /><br />And I wish you a Blessed Pascha!<br /><br />In Christ,<br /><br />SophoclesSophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-21129546529875198032010-03-23T01:05:35.571-07:002010-03-23T01:05:35.571-07:00It seems that the author of the blog has a problem...It seems that the author of the blog has a problem with certian elements in AA, and I cannot disagree with him on my own dissapointmet with the trend towards psygollygising AA. The real risk is to the newcomer in AA, who may miss the point of spiritual growth as being the critical factor of recovery.<br /><br />However, I would like to see the author post more clearly his thoughs as to why he believes Fr. W. has a "world view" regarding AA. I am not really an expert on philosophy, religion or AA, so for it to be simple and clear would be helpful to this student. <br /><br />In addition,I have a few thoughts that may be relevent to the authors comments about AA. <br /><br />First of all, AA is not intended to be all things to all people. Nor is it intended to be a final stopping place for peoples spiritual growth. In it's own basic text it states that there are some people who should be going back to their church. The author is apparently one of them. <br /><br />Secondly, AA is not a church, and most people in AA would say the same. Because AA is not a church, it cannot give what the Church can give through its offices. Again, it is not intended to replace church, nor does it want to. By its own preamble, its primary purpose to to help alcholics. (Even to get back to church, if that is their desire.)There are some AA members who need the extra grace that going to church gives them. For these people, they should be going to a church and not trying to make AA fit all of their spiritual needs. I am one of these kind. I go to AA to save my a.., and to to Church to save my soul. And I try not to confuse the two.<br /><br />Thirdly, the Church generally fails in helping alcoholics not because it lacks the basic tools of spiritual recovery. I see the 12 Steps of AA every time I go to Church, especially during this Lenten season. What the Church lacks is an understanding of the disease concept of addiction, and related to this, the it lacks the necessary support which alcoholics give each other in early recovery. But the Church was not intended to be an AA meeting. Just as I go to a dentist when I have toothache, and not to the priest, I go to AA to treat my alcoholism. The blessing is that the Church adds to my esperience from AA, as AA adds salt to what I learn at the Church.<br /><br />To sum up, AA is a "God Thing". He is in charge of it, and I am sure that he will lead it into and through whatever changes it needs to go through as it adjusts to this modern society. (By the way, our Orthodox Church is changing as well. But only the small t's, thank God.)Will the heart and spiritual message of AA be changed into something less than is necessary for recovery because of "modernism", or "psychology"? I doubt it, as AA has changed the thinking of psychologists far more than psychology will ever change AA. And AA has changed American culture far more than the culture will change AA. The Steps are the same as they were 70 years ago, but the medical, judical, educational systems of America are forever changed by the effectiveness of AA. I guess if we counted the movies and television programs that use "recovery" jargon started in AA, I would also suggest that AA has also changed the American culture.<br /><br />When I go the my next meeting, I will go to give something, and thereby will take something. Mostly what I give I get back, doubled. But I will not be dissapointed if AA is not being something that it was not intended to be, that is, a church or a religion. <br /><br />CyrilFloyd Frantzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12466148743461010556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-49373679897287933692010-03-01T09:20:20.931-08:002010-03-01T09:20:20.931-08:00I am an Orthodox Christian. I am a recovering alco...I am an Orthodox Christian. I am a recovering alcoholic. I could not find an answer within the Church. In fact, my priest (much to my Disappointment) directed to me to AA. Through it I have found the practical - non mystical application of faith in God. Specifically, I have been able to confront the sin of 'self-will' vs. submission to God's will. Self-centeredness vs. God centeredness. Learning to rely on God's grace and strength to walk free from the bondage of self.<br /><br />I have viewed this journey as a path by which God is restoring sanity in an insane life that was sinful, slef-consumed, unmanageable, destructive and certainly doomed for certain death. Or said another way, God is now restoring sobriety of thought, feeling and action as I in freedom put on Christ. My continual prayer is that God's Will be done in and though me for His glory and the good of others.<br /><br />With that said, these were all things that I practically could not get to 'In' the Church. Perhaps that is why God through my Priest directed me 'outside' what is considered to be the Church - to a place where His voice has been heard by desperate people who both outside the Church and inside the Church (me) could not find an answer. OR anyone who even understood the issue. <br /><br />But like you, daily, hourly - I would like to have my worlds reconciled. I would like to know the Churches answer for 'addictions' or those trapped and ensnared in sinful 'passions'. I would like to understand if or where AA fits alongside or within the Church. God has given me freedom from alcohol through AA. It has been a tool. in my case, AA may not be any more than Balaam's ass. <br /><br />This I believe. God freed me yesterday and so far today from alcohol. That same God, is the God that I came to know within the Church. That same God, worked 'outside' of the 'Church' to provide an active solution. The means of obtaining that solution - its principles, processes, fellowship and sponsorship are all things that would be meaningful and healthy practices of the Church - helping men and women put off the 'old self' and it's passions and put on the 'new self' and fruits. Perhaps that is called discipleship.<br /><br />I am rambling. Suffice it to say - I feel alone on this journey. So few understand both worlds. I would welcome both your insights as well as a possible dialog by email or phone conversation.sobojohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06826268428447691151noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-64207374359334493892009-07-16T09:08:22.122-07:002009-07-16T09:08:22.122-07:00Sophocles,
Now that I've read this, our chopp...Sophocles,<br /><br />Now that I've read this, our choppy reception phone conversation makes more sense, and I see that I agree with you. <br /><br />I wont say that there is no place for outside support groups, but I would rather find it in the Church. I do not know what healthy "interdependence" is as opposed to co-dependence or aloof independence, but I think the cure is in the grace found in the prescriptions and Sacraments of the Church. That is where I'm looking to find health. Also it is helpful to hear of other people's struggles and what they've learned along the way. <br /><br />Thanks for sharing.Andrea Elizabethhttp://bloggingsbetter.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-18644272840512079472009-07-05T21:33:27.863-07:002009-07-05T21:33:27.863-07:00James,
Good. I look forward to hearing from you...James, <br /><br />Good. I look forward to hearing from you.<br /><br />After reviewing your comments and re-reading the piece, I realize I made it a bit too ambiguous in spots as to what I meant so I have edited a little more material to make it more clear.Sophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-49945138530732496682009-07-05T20:51:23.534-07:002009-07-05T20:51:23.534-07:00Sophocles:
Thank you. Will email in the next day o...Sophocles:<br />Thank you. Will email in the next day or two. Not surprisingly, I understand discretion.James the Thickheadedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128470567186118742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-66931172009391539942009-07-05T16:18:45.487-07:002009-07-05T16:18:45.487-07:00In any case, if I can be of any assistance to you ...In any case, if I can be of any assistance to you in what is most always a very difficult situation, please feel free to let me know, whether here or private e-mail which you can access on my page under "View my complete profile".<br /><br />I am not as open as I used to be about my past(this blog post an exception)but I have told those(such as my priest) that to be of help to someone I will gladly fully divulge myself.Sophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-49700566544574513772009-07-05T13:33:32.600-07:002009-07-05T13:33:32.600-07:00James,
Good points. And I'm torn by what I...James, <br /><br /><br />Good points. And I'm torn by what I would/will do if someone in destructive behavior comes across my path. Will I carte blanche point them toward AA? I'm unsure of this right now.<br /><br /><br />Here's another line of thought I entertained as well while in AA and *comparing* it with the Church: Was there no answer for alcoholism prior to AA? Meaning, if the Church IS the Church, does She not have an adequate solution for one who lives Her Life?<br /><br />Another thing which may not be overtly apparent is that yes, even in the Big Book, which sets down the original 100 members' experience of acquiring the "vital spiritual experience" sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism", it is in the text that members of AA are encouraged to belong to religious bodies of their choosing. <br /><br />For me, however, with my own return to the Church, I began to understand gnosticism as syncretic in its essence and upon understanding syncretism the natural connection to and of AA became apparent to me. I asked questions such as, "Would Saint Paul direct his spiritual children to a belief structure such as AA with an intact spirituality of its own, there?" "What would the Holy Fathers say"?<br /><br />And again, I deliberated about these matters for years and tried to ignore them or somehow make them all fit under one big spiritual umbrella where yes, the Church IS the Church but yes, there is also a place for AA.<br /><br />I leave the possibility open to myself that I may yet be wrong. Lord knows.<br /><br />I have visited St. John of Shanghai Monastery several times but not yet since Archimandrite Meletios became Abbott there. I would love to have some great conversation with him on this subject, but only if he's open. I certainly do not wish to force my view upon him.Sophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-23665628959681500332009-07-05T13:06:16.011-07:002009-07-05T13:06:16.011-07:00Thank you for responding... and you were in fact q...Thank you for responding... and you were in fact quite quick!!! so no need to apologize. Your objection is interesting... I rather thought that Fr. Mel mentioned that AA members were encouraged to become active in a religious community of their choosing, and can say that my pre-Orthodox parish sponsored a chapter, didn't do much more than offer space, and yet found a lot of our more active and dedicated members from the group. <br /><br />Before I read the book, I had the impression that many Orthodox were against AA per se, and I think Fr. Mel was dealing with that... and trying to make space for its acceptance but maybe I read it differently. Maybe there is more that needs to be done... but certainly given that it can work where much else fails, maybe he's afraid to publicize the negatives? but aware of them all the same?James the Thickheadedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128470567186118742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-4052420361824436522009-07-04T17:40:37.816-07:002009-07-04T17:40:37.816-07:00James,
Thanks for stopping by. Sorry it took som...James,<br /><br />Thanks for stopping by. Sorry it took some time to get back to this comment. I was mulling over how best to answer you. <br /><br />You're right. I did not close the loop by fully spelling out what problems I find inherent in AA and by extension the book which endorses AA by Father Meletios. And that's just it.<br /><br />When one comes to AA, one wittingly or unwittingly adopts a worldview. In fact, in my experience and in my observation of others' experiences, the success one has in actually overcoming their addiction often depends on them fully adopting said worldview.<br /><br />I need a lot more space to even begin fleshing out much that I would need to in order to make this a little more clear but the following may illustrate it adequately.<br /><br />I , in my time there, returned to the Church. I knew I was home, that I had arrived at the End All Be All. When one's conviction is thus, naturally it will spill out into one's everyday affairs, attitudes, aspirations, hopes for others, etc. <br /><br />Well, I began sharing Christ again and several men of which a couple I personally sponsored. I became godfather to 3 men I met from AA; meaning they saw in Christ's Church something which drew them in and they became Baptized and Chrismated Orthodox Christians.<br /><br />Please allow this tangental thought. When one takes seriously the Faith one will hope for those who enter in under their care that they will stick. And one quickly realizes how powerless one is to actually effect this sticking. It must necessarily come from within oneself to stay put int the Church and struggle to acquire Her Mind and Ethos.<br /><br />I sensed before these men asked me to be their Godfather but more especially after I became their Godfather, that the temptation from within AA is to make AA the primary worldview with its spirituality one adopts over and above whatever "religion" one may belong to. In other words, AA comes first. It is the default worldview one has. <br /><br />Now tied into this is the fact that God in AA must necessarily stay anonymous as to not prejudice those who either have no belief or whose belief is different or who hate what one's beliefs are. <br /><br />AA is a community and this, I feel is one of its greatest assets in that it provides community for so many who have come from no real sense of community or who have become the dregs of the community they came from. This lack of community, I believe, is a factor that contributes to active alcoholism.<br /><br />Now, as for my remarks about Modernity, this was merely an observation that Modernity is present everywhere and that for me alone, I did not wish to put up a fight both within AA(where I was able to apprehend its presence and effects in much the same way I see it in the Church and the world at large) and in the Church. In other words, if I am to fight, I am going to fight from within where I believe it matters most.<br /><br />If you wish to discuss more, feel free dear brother. What you may find useful in your own understanding of your alcoholic family member is some of the mechanics of alcoholism that AA identifies and has been able to integrate into its ability to actually provide the goods. One can overcome destructive drinking and/or drug addiction in AA. <br /><br />My problems lie not in this fact but rather to its necessary subsuming within itself anything outside of itself and making sense of it thus. To me, I stand within the Church and make sense of everything. I bring "everything" there and let "everything" takes its proper shape and perspective in my life.<br /><br />So, my criticism of Father Meletios is that he does not address this at all. He gives AA a blind approval. In his talks, he frequently mentions AA and his association with it.<br /><br />There's of course a lot more that I could say but will leave it at that. Feel free to inquire more.<br /><br />In Christ,Sophocleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07923381271179811989noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38889537.post-41360887100289645662009-07-04T10:01:34.961-07:002009-07-04T10:01:34.961-07:00I've read Fr. Mel's book as well as "...I've read Fr. Mel's book as well as "Bread & Water, Wine & Oil". I'm not an alcoholic... but wonder about a family member and read the book to learn more. I found it a tough read in that regard. So I suffer as an outsider of sorts in my understanding... and found myself quite curious as to your views.<br /><br />"I have some problems with Father Meletios' worldview in relation to AA and the Church and to explain them, I would need to go into my own reasons for leaving Alcoholics Anonymous. Bound up with my decision to leave are the reasons why I would have to be critical of the approach Father Meletios takes here in this book."<br /><br />Maybe I've missed it - and if I did, I apologize... but I don't think you came back to your criticism of the book so much as finished with your dissatisfaction with AA.. and it's tendency to embrace "modernity" and psychological analysis? I'm guessing a bit here... but wish you'd close that loop in a little more detail... or point me to where I missed it.James the Thickheadedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11128470567186118742noreply@blogger.com